Immigration in the South

Published on September 14, 2018

https://www.samford.edu/departments/oral-history/projects/samwav/Immigration-in-the-South.mp3

". . . I’ve become a lot more aware of the fact that I’m black, that I’m, I’m a black American. I, and most people would probably categorize me as an African-American, um. I personally wouldn’t, just because I feel like I’m Haitian-American because, you know, I, my roots are in Haiti."

Chapters

Transcript

[HARWELL GOODWIN DAVIS: He stated that he had been appointed to suggest a
president for Howard College.

EUNICE ROGERS: And so there was a lot of industry in Bessemer when I grew up, a
lot of progressiveness. However, it was still a typical, small, Southern town.

OLIVER BARREAU: To be perfectly honest with you, um, I didn't know what Alabama
was until I set foot in Alabama.

ELIZABETH SLOAN RAGLAND: I was not greeted by hecklers. I was greeted by Martha
Ann Cox.]

Michelle Little: Welcome back to Sam.wav. We are your hosts, Michelle Little and
Claire Davis, and today we have an episode for you about immigrants in the
South.

Claire Davis: You've probably heard a lot about immigration at this point -
you've seen all the stats, the numbers, and the data. That's all old hat. But
we're not a newsfeed or a podcast devoted to political policy. We're an oral
history podcast, which means that we don't look as numbers so much as we do at
faces, and we don't hear stats - we hear stories. And stories have power in a
way that headlines and data do not.

Michelle Little: The origination for this podcast came about a year ago when Dr.
Carlos Aléman, a professor of Latin American history in Samford's history
department, starting brainstorming with us about his History of Immigration
class. And we wanted to include oral history interviews, but we were also trying
to think about what the final product of those interviews would be, and we
decided to have the students not only do the interviews but then set up podcasts
from those interviews so that they could include more contextual information
about the countries that immigrants came from and what their experiences were
once they got to the United States. And this proved to be a very beneficial
project for the class, and we were able to produce several different episodes
that spanned all sort of experiences from the local community.

Claire Davis: We wish we had the time to share them all here, but we don't
want to take up all your time today, so we've highlighted a few of our favorite
stories that reflect some of the challenges in immigrating to the United States,
a few of which natural-born citizens may not consider. The first story comes
from Dr. Aléman himself, whose family immigrated to the US when he was a child.
He describes his experience here, as well as his thoughts on who an American is.

Carlos Aléman: I was born in Nicaragua in 1979. My family migrated to the
United States, uh, San Francisco, California, in 1982, and we left because of
the Nicaraguan Civil War.

Carlos Aléman: Well, it was a really tumultuous time during Nicaraguan history.
Really, my father had already been coming back and forth for a number of years
to the United States, and he would actually find different ways to get into the
country, and so he crossed the border illegally several, several times, uh, and
so when we got to the United States, my father had already been living here for
a number of years. And my grandmother told my mom that she had to figure out how
to get to the States, so she saved up a lot of money to arrange to get a tourist
visa. So we actually came, my mother, my brother, and myself on a tourist 90-day
visa to the United States. And then like most people who actually are in the
country without papers, uh, we overstayed our visa. And then we didn't have our
status, um, our official permanent resident status well until 1988 when we were
able to apply and were granted permanent residency.

Michelle Little: So when you came to that realization, how did that change . . .
how you thought about yourself? You always felt American and, you know, thought
you were an American growing up, how did that just change your identity?

Carlos Aléman: Well, I think that, you know, like, um, I came to the
realization that there's different kinds of Americans, right? I think that for
most people there is no such thing as one kind of American. Where I grew up in
San Francisco, it was a predominately Latino neighborhood, so, um, most of the
kids I grew up with were American in the way that I knew to be, right? I was no
different than they were, right? Some of us were born here, some of us weren't,
some of us were undocumented, some of us weren't, I mean, some of us were
citizens, we were growing up in the same community, partaking in the same
culture, uh, speaking English and Spanish. I mean, so where I grew up, being
American was something way different than maybe growing up in Alabama does,
right? Uh, so it was just normal to me. There was nothing strange about it. It
was just a matter of "Oh, I have to do this every ten years and renew my
residency," but other than that, there was nothing different, right? I'm fluent
in English, I'm very familiar with the culture. It's, ah - nothing really
changes, there's just this knowledge, though, that I can't vote, right, and
that's the main thing, because we still pay taxes, we still partake in, um,
working and contributing to society and getting an education, and I always knew
I'd go to college, um. I think going to college helped a lot too, you know, in
learning about, you know, history and Latin-American immigration and learning
more about my own family and country's history, right, and what role US
intervention played in that. And so that all informed who I became, and so I've
come to kinda accept this kind of bicultural existence where I'm both
Nicaraguan-American but I'm never necessary fully Nicaraguan or fully American
in terms of how people want to define these things in much more static terms. My
identity is very fluid, and culturally, I feel like I can talk back and forth
between the cultures. So when I talk to other people who are Latino, my language
of choice is Spanglish and is just going back and forth, and I can alternate
without even thinking about it. And if I talk to people who just speak Spanish,
I can do that, and if I talk to people who just speak English, I can do that,
but it's very much of this hybridity.

Michelle Little: And, now that you know the fullness of what went on during the
process, do you talk with your parents some about what that was like? You know,
the fear that they experienced and the decisions that they had to make, um, you
know, do you know a little more about the background?

Carlos Aléman: Well, I think they were just worried, right? I think they were
worried that at some point, we wouldn't be able to stay, but to be honest, they
did their best to hide that from us, right. It was only once our status had been
regulated and we had become permanent residents that my parents begun share more
with us about "Okay, we're good now, right, now after five years or a number
years we will be able to apply for citizenship." So, what was interesting,
though, is that I became a permanent resident when I was nine years old, but I
didn't become a citizen until I was 34, right, so I actually waited a good
number of years to even apply, right? My parents became citizens when I was
about eighteen or nineteen, so they had already waited too long in terms of as a
minor, I couldn't be automatically granted citizenship, so I had to do my
process on my own. And it's an expensive process, you know, you pay $800, you
have to pay for your, uh, application and all this other stuff, so, for a long
time, I was a graduate student or an undergraduate student. I didn't have the
money to do all that. And then it was a matter of, well . . . um . . . I wasn't
sure what the benefits of going for full citizenship were, right, and then, by
the time I got into my thirties, though, I'm like, "yeah, I need to vote," (CA
laughs) "I need to be a part of the political process," and so I think that was
for me . . . what influenced my decision to apply. Right, but for my parents, I
think they, they, they were just trying to survive, right, and they were trying
to make the best choices, and I'm grateful to them for all the choices they made
for us, right, and I think that has granted my brother and I fantastic
opportunities that we tried to, you know, make the most out of. You know, I'm a
professor here at Samford, and my brother's a therapist in San Francisco, and my
dad is an accountant, he has his own business, and he frequently travels back
and forth between Nicaragua and the United States, and my mom, she works as an
administrative assistant in a San Francisco unified public school district, so
we are all people who came here with uh, or they came here with a vision to make
the most of the opportunity, and they instilled that kind of ambition in my
brother and myself.

Michelle Little: And can you talk a little bit more about the process of
applying for full citizenship? Like, you mentioned the $800 and the application,
but I don't know if everyone fully knows the whole process and what you have to
-- what you go through.

Carlos Aléman: I mean, I think it's different for different people, but
overall, you know -- first of all, even being granted permanent residency is a
process in and of itself, and so when people say, you know, "People should just
come and wait in line, wait their turn," it depends on what country you're
coming from. Like, if you're coming from Mexico, that line is twenty years long.
Um, there is no quick process to apply legally, right, and so that's why people
make the choice oftentimes to not do that. Um, for us, once we were able to
grant, be granted permanent residency when I was nine years old, then it's
typically a five year process in that after five years you can apply for
citizenship. We didn't do that right away because, we didn't have the money, I
mean, my parents didn't have the money, and, uh, so they did that later. But
once you do, and once you are able to, like I was when I was in my thirties,
then you submit the paperwork, you, ah, give them all the information,
background information on yourself, let them know where you lived, all the
countries you visited, um, anytime you stepped out of the country, and then you
also have to do your uh, bioinformatics, you have to give your fingerprints,
right, and you have to pay for that and there's an office here in Birmingham
that you can do that, and then you submit your application and then they let you
know, right, after a while as to when your interview can be, right. And in your
interview you get tested on a long series of questions about US civics,
essentially, right, and history, and so you have to come and demonstrate that
you are familiar with American politics and history, that you, um, have studied
enough to . . . to be here, right, and . . . and then there's no guarantees
there either, right, as to whether they'll . . . grant you your, your
citizenship. It depends on, the person who's interviewing you too has a lot of
leeway in making these kind of decisions. I had already lived here 31 years
before I went there, and I'm a professor of history, so it would have been a
little embarrassing had I not passed this test (ML laughs). Um, so I went, and,
and for me it was just not stressful at all, because I was just very comfortable
with the process, but for other people it, it would not be the same, right? I
think it's a lot more, uh, anxiety-inducing process, but I was very familiar
with what was going to take place. And after that, it took a few months, and I
heard that I had been approved, and then you go to Atlanta and then you get
sworn in, and it's a lovely, kind of touching ceremony in which you see people
from all over the world being granted, uh, citizenship, and you know, you saw
people crying. It was amazing going to Atlanta and how happy they are becoming
Americans.

Michelle Little: Alright, so jumping forward a little bit, last year you and I
started brainstorming about this History of Immigration class that you wanted to
teach, so can you talk a little bit about your inspiration for this class?

Carlos Aléman: Yeah, I mean, I'm trained as a historian of Latin America with
fields in immigration, right, and so I've been interested in immigration ever
since I can remember, partially because of my own story. But really just seeing
what it takes for people to leave the countries from where they're from and
enter a new one and acclimate and integrate and how these nations receive them,
right. I think that I'm fascinated by this part of the process, right, is how
someone becomes a member of a new community. And so, I've taught immigration
classes before, but I really wanted to focus on the South, as myself being a new
migrant to the South, right, uh, come to or try to come to understand what
Alabama is about and how Alabama is different from the rest of the country. So
for the class, I assigned books on Asians coming to the South, Latinos coming to
the South, African-American migration to the South, and even Europeans, right,
and what it means to come here, and what their experience was about. And so we
started talking about how then do we create an oral history component to the
class? Because I thought it would be exciting for students to create their own
primary sources. Because ultimately while I found some books, there are still so
much to be discovered and investigated, and so we started figuring out ways to
hook our students up with community members that they themselves could interview
and that they could learn what it's like to be an immigrant here in Alabama.

Michelle Little: What were some memorable things that you remember the students
coming to the realization of, either through your teaching or through the oral
history interviews and actually meeting people who had been through the process?

Carlos Aléman: I think one of the things that actually stood out to the
students is how diverse Alabama can be or the Deep South is, right, that there's
all these communities have been coming here for decades, trying to make their
way, and I think they are just unfamiliar with that. I think that in the South
we still have this conception it's a black-white binary, that the experience is
defined by black and white racial relations, and while that is an important and
critical component of Southern history, this other part that often gets ignored
is that there's these other groups that have been coming here for decades as
well trying to make their own imprint, and I think that sharing that with the
students and having them realize that this is really reflective of the rest of
the nation as well, as to how we are all in this kind of multi-cultural diverse
project of being Americans. America isn't a place where there's one language and
one people, right, that we're not rooted in this centuries-old tradition like
Europe is, that ours is one of committing to a set of ideas and that anyone from
any background can subscribe to those set of ideas as long as they commit to
them. So I think that for them, realizing that was really cool, and how that
plays here was really eye-opening for them. And then who they chose to interview
was cool. We asked students to interview Asian immigrants, Latino immigrants --
we had a set of students who -- one of my students interviewed her own father,
who was a Mexican immigrant who is a prominent businessman in the community and
I think that was a really great way for her to get to know her father in perhaps
ways that she had never had the chance to ask questions about her own past. We
had another student interview a Muslim imam, a leader of the community here of
the Birmingham Islamic Society. I think that that is something that we don't do
enough of here in terms of how do we engage with people who are not like us but
are still committed to making Birmingham and our city a great place and how do
we learn about each other and what they've been through and why they care about
Birmingham so much.

Michelle Little: So, with this background and conviction, Dr. Aleman took his
class to a new, personal level to make sure his students, at least, had the
opportunity to reach out to residents of Birmingham that actually experienced
the immigration process and find out why they chose Birmingham to settle down
and start a new life. The next interview is one that Dr. Aléman just mentioned.
The student's name is Nathan Saab, the child of an immigrant himself. He
interviewed Imam Ashfaq Taufique, who is the head of the local Birmingham
Islamic Society. In this clip, Imam Taufique relates some of the first cultural
confusions he experienced in America as a college student in Texas. [16:19]

Nathan Saab: And you mind, uh, telling us a little bit about, uh, what life was
like as a, uh, new Pakistani immigrant in 1975?

Ashfaq Taufique: You know, coming from Pakistan, where the middle-class families
and upper-class families in Pakistan are usually educated in English middle
schools. I went to a Catholic missionary school in Karachi, Pakistan, and
therefore from the language point of view, other than the accent and some, some,
uh, quirky things about English, British English, so language was not a great
problem. Accent was a great problem in the beginning, especially in Texas. A
very, a very, uh, favorite course of mine in civil engineering, uh, in which I
should have made an A, but throughout the semester, I did not understand a word
(NS laughs) my, my, my professor was talking about... So I had to do the whole
studies that particular semester on my own. And I still made a B (NS laughs)
studying on my own. So, so, so language was not a problem. Accent was a big
issue. Uh, some of the cultural things, uh, were big issues. Uh, one of the
things that was, was very, very, was not, not, not surprising was the first
time, was the, the sexual interaction that male-female, and dating, and somewhat
what, what we call illicit back home was normal and common here. So that was,
that was a, a surprise. What was, uh, what was, what was not a surprise... Those
were not a surprise but it was still... You know, we grew up reading Archie
Comics and, and, and so, so could understand, understand the culture a whole lot
more. One of the things that was very, very prevalent -- and I don't know if it
is still in Pakistan -- uh, American culture centers were very active,
recruiting us from, from that part of the world, from all over the world to, to
Americanize us. So my... I was on regular mailing lists from American culture
center. I was a part of the library, I and many other young people in, in
Pakistan. Therefore, we grew up with, uh, English language, with some
understanding of the culture, but no matter how you understand the culture, but
when you come here, it's a, it's a shock. The first time I landed at the DFW
Airport -- The DFW Airport had just started a week before I landed. I was trying
to make a telephone call, and I had great fun with the, with the, with the
operator who, who was helping me because I was stating "zed," (NS laughs)
because the person who I was looking for was, his name was Zeshon. And would
say, "Zed." And she would not understand what it was, and only to find out that
in America, it was called "Zee." (NS Laughs) And then when I first went to that
telephone booth, and I've never said that to anybody, but the first thing I saw
was a magazine called "Penthouse." (NS Laughs) And, uh, it was sitting right
there. (NS Laughs) And it was a shocking thing for me to, to see a magazine like
that. So there were, there were many moments of shock. There were many moments
of learning experience. I worked at 7-Eleven. And a lady came - I used to work
the graveyard shift when I was a student, and that was how I got my money. And,
uh, somebody came and asked me for cookies, and the... I did not know what
cookies meant so I directed her to every place, only to find out when she
brought what she called "cookies," I said, "Oh, you mean biscuits." (both laugh)
So, ah, you know, so matters like that were, were quite surprising. But it was,
it was a great time. That was, that was a good America I came to.

Claire Davis: In our last interview, students Jenny Cockerham and Jessica McKee
interview fellow student Oliver Barreau about his transition in moving from
Haiti to New York City to Alabama. Here's a fun fact - you've actually heard
Oliver's voice before. Not only was some of his story showcased in our teaser
episode, but he's also one of the voices in our theme music. If you can figure
out which line it is, you'll know a bit about his transition to Alabama already.
If you can't, don't worry -- he'll tell you himself.

Jenny Cockerham: So, how would you say your transition went from being in Haiti to-

Oliver Barreau: To the United States?

Jenny Cockerham: Yes.

Oliver Barreau: Um, my transition from Haiti to the United States, I think, was,
was easy because, like I said, um, you know, we used to vacation in New York. So
my transition from Haiti to New York was fairly easy because we used to stay
there two months at a time when we would vacation. I think my transition from
New York to Alabama was, uh, was the tougher part. It was a little different
because, you go to New York, you live in New York, it's a big city, people
everywhere, people walking, um, and then you come down to Alabama and you
can't-- Like, it's not, it's a complete, I don't know if you, you've been, but
it's a completely different, like, atmosphere. So I think, I think that
transition was a lot, um, was the one that was a little more challenging for me.

Jenny Cockerham: Did you realize how different Alabama was going to be from what
you might have thought previously?

Oliver Barreau: Uh, to be perfectly honest with you, um, I didn't know what
Alabama was until I stepped foot in Alabama. Um, I, I actually had no idea what
to expect. And that was kind of a scary aspect. Um, luckily for me we had some
family here, and they kinda helped us figure everything out. But for the most
part, I just -- I just kinda jumped into Alabama blind.

Jessica McKee: You said, um, that when you came here that it was very apparent
that it was white, but you went to New York first, so I'm just wondering was it,
like, more prevalent in Alabama that you were in this very white culture?

Oliver Barreau: Yeah, um, definitely more, more so in Alabama because, um, where
I went, where I stayed with my family in New York was more Brooklyn. I lived, I
stayed in Brooklyn, and I don't know if you know much about the, uh, the
demographics of New York, but Brooklyn is usually predominantly black and
Hispanic minorities but, um, yeah, coming down here was, was, like I said
earlier, the actual, like, culture shock of, of my life because I had to, uh,
kind of, how to navigate in a, like I said, quote-unquote "whiter" city.

Michelle Little: While Oliver easily slipped into the groove of American
culture, his own cultural identity is one that he struggles to present to the
world at large. As the interview progressed, questions about current events in
2016 came up, and Oliver shared his thoughts on how he feels as an immigrant in
the middle of such social turmoil.

Oliver Barreau: Well, especially recently, I, I've become a lot more aware of
the fact that I'm black, that I'm, I'm a black American. I, and most people
would probably categorize me as an African-American, um. I personally wouldn't,
just because I feel like I'm Haitian-American because, you know, I, my roots are
in Haiti. But, um, I don't know, I feel like most people when they see me, they
just view me as just, before, before I open my mouth and my accent comes out,
they'll just view me as black. Um, in light of recent events, uh, I don't know,
I feel like that's, I feel like I can kind of relate, I guess, a bit to the, to
the BLM sentiment that's kind of going on. Even though I don't, I don't
necessarily categorize myself personally as an African-American, but I know
that, like, out in the street, when I'm, you know, when I'm faceless and
nameless, I'm just to most, to everyone else who sees me, I am African-American,
I am black, so I guess, I don't know, in light of recent events I would say that
I definitely would kind of -- sympathize? Empathize, even? But at the end of the
day, I still view myself as a Haitian-American because of the fact, of the
simple fact that, you know, my parents are Haitian, I am Haitian, I lived in
Haiti, I speak French and Creole, and my culture, like the way I was raised, is
different than the way that, you know, African-Americans in the United States
are raised and it's a different culture, if that makes sense.

Claire Davis: For those of us who don't have to think about obtaining visas,
renewing permanent residency, or becoming a citizen, the struggles that
immigrants deal with on a daily basis often are more than expected.
Nevertheless, despite the number of legal, cultural, and personal boundaries
that exist, Dr. Aléman's statement sticks with us: America isn't a place of one
language and one people but instead of a set of ideas that are accessible to
anyone.

Michelle Little: As oral history is becoming more and more relevant in the
digital age, these differences of culture and language often are bridged by
stories. Stories give us access to the diversity of experience as well as the
unity in those situations. This is a major reason why we're passionate about the
process of oral history. There are many more stories out there that only you may
have access to, so we encourage you to see them out in your own neighborhoods
and communities and cities. Who knows what you might learn?

Claire Davis: In our next episode, we're staying in the neighborhood as we
explore how the music scene began in Birmingham long, long ago through
second-hand record stores and local recording studios. Until then,

Both: Make waves!

Michelle Little: Our music was written by Samford student Kerry Joiner. Our
cover art is courtesy of the Samford marketing department. This podcast was
hosted and written by Michelle Little and Claire Davis. Special thanks to Dr.
Aléman's History of Immigration class and the Samford history department.
Interviews for this episode were conducted by Michelle Little, Nathan Saab,
Jenny Cockerham, and Jessica McKee in order of appearance. To listen to the
student podcasts, visit our website at oralhistory.samford.edu under the History
of Immigration tab. This is a Samford Traditions and Oral Recordings Initiative
production. For more history on Samford University or our program, visit our
website at oralhistory.samford.edu or follow us on our Facebook and Instagram at
Samford_Stori, and on Twitter at SU_Stori.

Audio Information
Attribute	Value
Repository	Samford University Oral History Collection
Accession	SUHist/STORI/002

Immigration in the South

Chapters

Introduction: Carlos Aleman

Imam Ashfaq Taufique

Olivier Barreau

Transcript

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