Beeson Podcast, Episode #707 Dr. Karen Swallow-Prior Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. I am joined today by Dr. Karen Swallow Prior who is spending time with us this week for the biannual meeting of the Conference on Faith in History which is being hosted here on Samford’s campus here in the Divinity Hall as well. Dr. Prior is a frequent lecturer and noted author. She’s written a wide array of books including “On Reading Well: Finding the Good Life Through Great Books,” and the “Evangelical Imagination: How Stories, Images, & Metaphors Created A Culture in Crisis.” I’m sure we’ll hear about other books of hers as we talk here this afternoon as well. But Dr. Prior, thanks for being with us. >>Prior: Thanks for having me. >>Doug Sweeney: It’s great to have you. So, lots of our listeners have already heard about you. Some of our listeners have no doubt read something that you’ve written. But just for those who really don’t know who this Dr. Prior is at all, just tell us a little bit about yourself, how you grew up and maybe most importantly how did you come to faith in Christ? How did you become a Christian? >>Prior: Yeah, well, I grew up in a home that was a Christian home. My parents actually became Christian, had that authentic conversion experience when I was little. So, it was serious church going and Christian faith was relatively new to them as well. And so when I was about five or six or seven we started going to a Baptist church. I had already been sort of dedicated in the Methodist Church of my family origins but I think I was around seven when I was baptized by emersion. Which I remember. And I don’t remember the moment when I asked Jesus into my heart because I was actually quite young. I remember though many times as a small child praying to Jesus, knowing that He heard and that he was my Savior and that He loved me. So, my memories don’t go back much further than being a professing Christian. That was a long time ago and I didn’t really grow up in the evangelical sub culture that I write about now and think about so much now. And so I just ended up going to college and majoring in English and going into a PhD program at a state university and studying English. And it really wasn’t until I was midway or almost entirely through that program that I encountered the idea of biblical worldview and integrating my faith with my academic discipline. And that just lit a fire under me. >>Doug Sweeney: Why all of a sudden did you start thinking about that? >>Prior: Well, I think there was a cultural moment. The time of the rise of the religious right and I was being discipled and churched by those in those circles. And so I began to really take my faith seriously. So, that was one thing that was happening. But another thing that was happening alongside that is I was visiting a church of a friend. And in the foyer they had copies of a magazine called World Magazine. And I picked that up and I saw in their articles and their analysis and their criticism the application of biblical worldview to all areas of life in a way that I had never seen before. And everything just kind of clicked for me. So, by the time I graduated with my PhD ... and on the job market I would have gone pretty much anywhere but I got a job at an evangelical university. And went there and taught for decades. I taught English from a biblical worldview. And have been doing that up until last year. Now I’m doing full time speaking and writing. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. All right. Let me back up just one time. Some of the people who listen to our podcast are thinking about going to seminary. So, they’ll tune into a seminary podcast to say, “I wonder what’s going on at that school.” And we’re not just trying to reel them into Beeson Divinity School. We’re trying to help them discern God’s will for their lives as they think about these things. So, when you’re in adolescence ... help me pose the question the right way ... when you’re in adolescence or in college, what are you thinking about as you’re trying to answer the question of what am I supposed to do or be when I grow up? And do you have any advice about vocational discernment for people who are in about the same stage of life and trying to figure all of this out? >>Prior: Yeah, no, that is a really good question. And I will say, even though I do a fair amount of critique of evangelical culture and subculture, there is also much more awareness and intentionality in talking about these things. And when and where I was growing up. So, when I was growing up I sort of received the message and I don’t say anyone did this on purpose or said it on purpose, but the message I somehow received was that if you really love the Lord you will become a pastor or a missionary. Now, I was Baptist and I wasn’t going to be allowed to be a pastor. And I didn’t want to be. Now, I know not all Baptists are like that but ... and I certainly did not want to be a missionary. I’m a homebody. And so I just somehow as a young child I just got the idea, “Well, I don’t want to be a pastor or a missionary. I must not love the Lord that much.” And so I just compartmentalized my faith and my studies, my bookish life. I loved literature. And so again it really wasn’t until nearly the end of my PhD program that I realized how they really fit together. And in the beginning of that program is when I began teaching. I had no idea that I was made to teach, really. I just loved reading literature and just became a teaching assistant in grad school like everyone else did. And really accidentally – well providentially obviously but I did not know that I was created to teach. And so I stumbled into my vocation. >>Doug Sweeney: I was about to use the language of blessed impracticality about the journey. You weren’t too worried about kind of forcing this into a career. >>Prior: No. >>Doug Sweeney: You were doing things that you loved to do, you found important. Were you also thinking that maybe God made me in such a way that I would love to do this and find this important? Or that was part of the compartmentalize you were talking about? At a certain age you weren’t even able to think like that about it. >>Prior: Right. I thought about all the things I might want to do and the one thing I knew I wanted to do but again I didn’t really have a framework from it is I knew I wanted to go to college. I’m not from an academic family. I always loved school. I always loved reading. I knew I wanted to go to college before I even know what college was. And I think that’s because we hosted a couple of college students that were singing in church and they stayed in our home and they were two young women and they were in college and I just became fascinated with the idea of college. And so I knew I loved school. I knew I loved academia. But I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I thought of all kinds of things. And again it was the time when the world was just opening up for women. And so I just thought to myself there are many things I want to be. I don’t want to be a nurse or a teacher and I think I just thought I wanted to not do the stereotypical things. And I didn’t know how much I would love teaching until the first day I taught a college class. >>Doug Sweeney: Right. Well, now we know how you become the Karen Prior that those of us who know you, know you as. And ever since, you’ve been involved in teaching ministry, writing ministry, speaking ministry, some combination of those things. And as we said at the top of the show, you’re on campus today because you just spoke to a group of Christian historians under the auspices of the conference on faith and history. Just so our leaders know what the conference on faith and history is ... it’s a professional organization that was founded in 1960s by a group of historians teaching at secular universities who were all Christians. And wanted to some fellowship at the annual meetings, the professional meetings that they would go to. And wanted to help each other think about the bearing of their Christian faith on the work that they were doing as teachers, writers and so on. So, that organization has been around for almost 60 years now. It has big conferences every other year. And the conference this year is happening this week at Samford University. So, Dr. Prior just spoke to that group, what did you speak about? >>Prior: Well, I gave a talk based on my most recent book, “The Evangelical Imagination,” which you mentioned at the beginning. I’m not a historian. I’m always nervous talking about history in front of historians because English literature is my field. But I’ve learned a lot about history and Evangelicalism from studying literature. And so I talked about some of the central metaphors of Evangelicalism throughout its 300 year history. And that’s really what my book is about is all the powerful metaphors and images that form our social imaginaries and I think as Evangelicals ... again, I mentioned biblical worldview, and I have always tended to approach things intellectually and theoretically and ideas. But social imaginary kind of is a counter balancing tension, it adds a counter balancing tension to that because we also, whether we realize it or not, are shaped by metaphors and dreams and legends and myths that inform our people and our communities. And so I talked about that. But again, drawing from my book because I think as Evangelicals we just like to talk about doctrine and ideas and ... not that there’s anything wrong with that. But we’re also creatures- >>Doug Sweeney: Thank you, because this is a seminary. >>Prior: (laughs) That’s right, but we’re creatures of imagination. And I think the Church, we will do better when we realize how influenced we are by art and literature and stories and metaphors. >>Doug Sweeney: We agree. Okay. So for the sake of ... there’s also a bunch of lay people who listen to this and maybe they might have heard the term “social imaginaries” before ... maybe not. Help us out a little bit. So, what’s the social imaginary and what do metaphors have to do with it? >>Prior: Yeah. So, a social imaginary ... I’m going to give a technical definition but then I’m going to explain it in every day terms. I use the definition of Charles Taylor and he talks about a social imaginary as being sort of a collection of metaphors, images, stories, legends that we inherit from our communities. And none of us have just one. We inherit multiple ones because we’re all part of different communities. And the key point that the makes about these is that they are precognitive. We’re not necessarily thinking about them. And maybe the best example from sort of everyday life is the example of the American Dream. Right? We don’t necessarily have to talk about the American Dream or think consciously about the American Dream and yet if we live in America we’re all shaped by it. There’s sort of these expectations that we carry and that we have and we may not even realize and I think a lot of young people and even their parents have a lot of tension because there’s an understanding of what the American Dream is and we have a whole generation that’s kind of ... reasons that are not their fault, not living up to that unstated expectation. And so that might be something we’re carrying around with us without even realizing it because we’ve inherited this idea for generations about what life/success in America looks like. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. All right. Good. Well, we’re already talking about your writing ministry. Can we kind of pan out a little bit and take a big picture view of your writing career just to inform our listeners a little bit? Tell us ... you’ve already hinted a few minutes ago at kind of how you got into English Lit and writing to begin with. But how and when did you decide that you could actually make a living writing things and maybe that’s something God made you to do? And then once you kind of got comfortable with that, just tell our listeners a little bit about some of the things that you’ve written over the years and how you’re writing career has evolved? >>Prior: Yeah. No, that’s a good question. It’s been a long process and I do want to sort of put the disclaimer out there that most people don’t make a living writing. And those who do don’t necessarily make a very good one. So, dreamers – settle down! (laughs) But I said before I believe I was created by God to teach. And so I think that when I was in the classroom I was doing that but my writing has always been sort of teaching, a lot of opinion essays, and analysis. And even speaking. I don’t even really consider myself a speaker as much as I do a teacher, even if it’s in a more formal setting. And so it really has been very slow and I want to say organic, this development from teaching in the classroom and then I didn’t even publish my first book until I was teaching for I think 13, 14 years. And then published more and more articles and so forth. And then if anyone wants to be a writer you should be warned that when you write something people then want you to come speak about it. Whether you ... >>Doug Sweeney: Whether you want to or not. >>Prior: Whether you want to or not! (laughs) And that’s part of supporting your writing and so I would write things and come speak about them as I did this week here on campus. And then it really wasn’t my intention to leave the classroom but it just seemed like God gave my life a sharp turn in the past year or so. I decided that I would speak and write full time, at least for now. And probably for the foreseeable future. And He keeps opening doors, even though it wasn’t something that I set out to do. And I think this part goes back to your earlier question about how we find our calling and how we know what God wants us to do. There’s no formula. And sometimes He surprises us. And sometimes we surprise ourselves. So, I think we have to kind of hold loosely and seek and ask. And see what doors ... I know it’s a terrible cliché but I don’t have a better one. What doors open and what doors close. I think God does that and works that way in our lives. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, I think so too. All right. Tell our listeners about ... let’s just say three or four of your books. You’re a great writer. You’re a great Christian writer. You got lots of fans. One of your fans was with us just a few minutes ago before we started recording this podcast. I bet there’s some listeners who want to read something that Prior has written. Tell us a little bit about what the options are. >>Prior: Okay. Well, my first choice because you’ve limited my choices ... because I love reading literature so much and I want everyone else to love reading literature, which is not something that comes naturally to most people. Like any other skill or discipline we often need to be taught. We need to be given tools to understand what we’re reading. The same is true of the Bible. Anyone can pick up the Bible and read it but obviously having assistance and tools helps us. So, I did edit a series of six classic works of literature, published by B&H where I write introductions and give footnotes to finding old words and give discussion questions that you can read on your own or as a book club. And so any book in that series, if you’re interested in reading literature but feel like you need a hand holding you, I’m the hand holding you. And that is what I love to do is help people read literature. And so I’ll just rattle off the titles of those books. Charlotte Bronte’s “Jane Eyre,” Jane Austen’s “Sense & Sensibility,” Joseph Conrad’s “Heart of Darkness,” Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein,” and Nathaniel Hawthorne’s “The Scarlet Letter,” and Thomas Hardy’s “Tess of the d'Urbervilles.” >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Sounds great! And how about these days? Do you have a book or two in the works? >>Prior: Well, I do have a new book in the works and it’s actually centered on the things we’ve been talking about. The book is not about literature, although I use a lot of literary references in it, it’s on calling. It’s something that, as I shared, I have had what I feel like is a turn in my calling in life. And so the book will be out next year. The title is “You Have a Calling: Finding Your Vocation in the True Good and Beautiful.” >>Doug Sweeney: Sounds great! Can you give us 30 seconds on what it might mean to find your calling in the true, the good, and the beautiful? >>Prior: Well, what I’m trying to show is that our callings are not always glamorous or fancy or the things that we think that they should be. And that often our callings are played out in ordinary life. Sometimes our callings are things that we actually don’t get paid to do. And sometimes we get paid to do things that aren’t our passion. And as we struggle ... we will have different callings over the course of our lives. We don’t just have one calling. And sometimes callings change, as I’ve just shared. Sometimes they end. And sometimes they overlap, but as long as ... what I’m trying to argue in the book, it’s a novel argument as far as I know ... if we are pursuing what is true, good, and beautiful – which I define and explain in the book – we will find our calling. >>Doug Sweeney: Sounds great. I like what you said about sometimes we don’t get paid to pursue our callings. You’ve made me think about my wife, Wilma, who has had some very important jobs at different times over the course of her life. But other times she hasn’t been earning money doing what she feels like God made her to do. And it can be hard when you’re in a season of life like that to feel like you’re really doing some kind of divine work. >>Prior: People like that are ones I had foremost in mind in writing this book. And again to go back to a previous part of the conversation, I love America, I love the concept of the American Dream, but there are things that has distorted in our understanding and we tend to have it engraved in us that if you’re successful you’re going to get paid for what you do or you’re going to be famous for what you do, or you’re going to be a capital “I” influencer. And sometimes that happens but most often it doesn’t. And it’s that idea of the American Dream that has made us carry that false idea. There are many things that we are called to do that people will never know about. We won’t get paid much or anything for. And yet they are fulfilling what God made us to do when he placed us where he put us and when he put us there and if we know that I think that is the best form of fulfillment and it’s not about money and fame and so on. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, that’s great. So, you’ve written a lot about fiction, imaginative literature ... have you ever thought about writing fiction yourself? Writing a novel? Something like that? >>Prior: Yeah, I haven’t seriously given thought to that. I’ve written a couple of poems. I think if I had an art form it would be the short story. I love short stories and I love the condensed use of language. I don’t know. That’s something I’m actually holding before the Lord and saying, “Lord, if you call me to that or have called me to that make that clear.” And make the space in my life for that to happen. You also have to be careful what you pray for ... so ... >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Just a couple more questions. We’re running low on time. One is I know a lot of people, divinity schools tend to attract, convene interesting sets of people. Oftentimes there’s a bunch in any given set who have thought about the possibility of writing. They like reading, they like trying their hand at writing, they wonder what it might be like to try to publish some writing. Obviously, my father is a literary agent. Or he was for most of his life. And he used to make a joke about everybody who has half a mind to write a book does. (laughter) So, we probably don’t want to encourage everybody to become a writer, probably some people were made for this and other people weren’t. But if people are honestly trying to figure out, “God, is this something you’ve made me to be ...” And they’re just at the beginning of this journey, what kind of advice do you have for them? >>Prior: I mean, the best advice is to do it, try it, humbly submit your work to places that might be a good fit for it. You mentioned people who are reading and that is really the first step. Because you have to know what’s already out there and what kinds of venues would be a good fit for your work. And open yourself up any way that you can to feedback from readers, whether that’s an editor, or whether it’s having a blog or a Substack. Soliciting feedback and listening to criticism and seeing what people are responding to and maybe what they’re not responding to. Now of course we all know people can produce click bait and get a lot of response with that, but if you’re an artist you just ... you want to hone your craft, take workshops/classes, get in writer’s groups, and get feedback. Because it’s like any other skill – we need to have other people’s eyes on it to give us the feedback. >>Doug Sweeney: Good advice. We like to end as many interviews as we can by asking guests who have been walking with God for a decent number of years and who are well known for a certain kind of ministry whether they feel like they’re still growing in the Lord, whether God is teaching them anything new these days. So, I want to ask you that. You didn’t know I was going to ask you that. So, this is just sort of off the cuff. But if you had to answer the question ... What is God doing in my life these days? What is He teaching me? What is He doing with me? What am I kind of tuned into in terms of His work in my life? What would you say? >>Prior: Wow, that is such a good question. I have been walking with the Lord for many years now. And I would go back ... I said earlier that I knew from the time I was a small child that Jesus loved me, that I could go to Him and pray and seek him. I still do that. I still know that. But I have learned, I think, in the past couple of years that he sees me and answers my prayers in ways that I don’t think I ever could understand or appreciate before having to be in a place where I really am truly relying on him. I feel his presence in my life more than ever. And I’m not even someone who ... I haven’t really gone through that Dark Night of the Soul. So far! There’s always time. But it just, even so I just feel closer, I feel his presence more closely than ever before and I’m so grateful. Many of us are in a time where we kind of feel hurt by the church or disappointed in the church or by people. And that’s always going to be the case, but in that I just feel Jesus’ presence even more and I’m so thankful. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, thanks be to God. Thank you for being with us. Listeners, as you know, this has been Dr. Karen Swallow Prior. She has spent many years teaching and writing. She likes to write about writers. She’s a wonderful writer herself. We commend her writing to you. We ask you to pray for her and her writing ministry and teaching ministry as well. We thank you for tuning in. Please pray for the students of Beeson Divinity School as God continues to do His work in their lives, forming them to be the next generation of ministers of the gospel. We say goodbye for now. >>Mark Gignilliat: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mark Gignilliat. Our engineer is Rob Willis. Our Producer is Neal Embry. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes, YouTube, and Spotify.