Beeson Podcast, Episode #702 Dr. Ed Stetzer Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Sweeney. I am pleased to say that I’m joined today by my friend, Dr. Ed Stetzer who is an alumni of Beeson Divinity School. We’ll ask him about that in just a few minutes. He’ll be preaching here in chapel at Beeson Divinity School this coming Tuesday. We’ll ask him about that as well. But serves primarily as Dean of our sister school in southern California, Talbot School of Theology, part of Biola University. Ed is also scholar and residence and teaching pastor at the Mariner’s Church in Southern California. Brother, we are glad to have you on the podcast and welcome you back to one of your alma maters. >>Stetzer: Oh, I’m so glad to be here. Whenever I talk to a Sweeney I get nervous, though, because I’m behind on a book project and your dad is my agent. So, I’ve got to jump to get these things done. I should be working on it right now but I’m thrilled to be here with you. I love that you’re now the Dean of the Beeson Divinity School! I mean, what a great impact you’ve had and I got to tell you, my own life was deeply impacted by my time at Beeson Divinity School. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, we’re thrilled to have you. I’m sure my father, when he listens to this, will be thrilled that you’re thinking about your book projects. I’m sure you’re going to finish this podcast and go finish a book for him in just a day or two. So, I want to introduce you, Ed, to our listeners. Lots of people at Beeson know you. Lots of evangelicals who listen to podcasts know about you but just for those who don’t know as much about you as they’d like to know, let me begin by asking you to tell us just a couple of things about your life and ministry – most importantly how did you come to faith in Christ and sense that the Lord was leading you into ministry? >>Stetzer: Yeah. So, I grew up ... my family is from New York City and took me home when I was the littlest kid to a place called Floral Park on the edge of New York City. And then Queens area and then out on Long Island. So, I grew up in an Irish Catholic household that was far more Irish than they were Catholic. So, no real faith commitment that was there. A series of things ... actually my sister first and then my mother ... they had come to Christ in primarily the charismatic movement of the Episcopal Church. Well, my mother did. My sister rode a bus to church in New York City, so it’s a pretty fascinating story to see how people reach out. Anyway ... so when I was youth group age I got in trouble actually. I got grounded and my mother said, “You can either go to this retreat,” and she must have signed me up ahead of time, she must have known, “or you can be grounded for a week.” I said, “Well, I’ll go to the stupid retreat.” And there I heard the good news of the gospel. So, I came to Christ in the charismatic movement of the Episcopal Church. I was discipled ... you had to go Tuesdays to something in the local Assemblies of God church called Calvary Assembly which I found out was a very significant Assemblies of God church later. This was in Orlando. We had moved from New York to Orlando when New York City went belly-up financially. Trying to find work, starting over. It was a tough time in our lives. The journey we were on at times we were on public assistance. We were, my parents divorced, my sister got cancer. It was a lot. But the Lord in His goodness through that turbulence and tumult redeemed me. And yeah, I became a follower of Jesus. From there I mentioned one of the greatest parts of my life – I met my high school sweetheart. We were 15 years old. I started a bible study in our high school, co-started. And she came to that bible study and we met each other there. We were friends for a year. Started dating at 16, married at 20. Moved to Buffalo, New York at 21 to plant a church among the urban poor. And I’m going to get to the Beeson part, ‘cause that’s a fun part. So, when we went up to Buffalo I was 21 years old. I mean, nobody should have ... by then I was in a low church denominational tradition that didn’t have a lot of ordination standards. So, a local church ordained me. And went to Buffalo, started knocking on doors, planting a church. Did a masters degree when I was there. Then did a second masters degree – the person I really admired – still do .. his name is Elmer Townes. He invited me to study with him in the areas of church growth and church planting. So, I did a second masters degree there. And then I was a part of the ... I think it was the second class of the Beeson Divinity School. And I got a phone call ... I don’t know if it was from Timothy George or not but in my romantic recollection of it Timothy George called me personally. But I actually don’t think it was. I think it was somebody else. And they recruited me. I said, “Well, it’s not accredited.” And they said, “We know it’s going to be accredited. And once it’s accredited your degree will be accredited.” Which I will tell you right now is not true! So, I was recruited to Beeson Divinity School under false pretenses. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh my goodness! >>Stetzer: But I had some of the best years. I would go on to do a PhD and that’s great. But I would say ... and I’m not just being nice because you’re the Dean. My time at Beeson Divinity School was transformative. Far more impactful than any of the two masters degrees I did or the PhD I did. In some ways because it was a healthy place. Where the other places I studied were not always so healthy. It was a healthy place. Timothy George would ... I mean, we’d have lunch with, I don’t know, leading scholars. I took preaching with Alfords and it was a really powerful ... Theology with Timothy George. How do you not ... Theology with Timothy George ... I was already Reformed. It just helped me grow in my maturity and my theology and more. Anyway, I’m at ... do we say competitive? No, we’re not competitive, we’re all in this together. But we’re sister schools so ... I should say come to the Talbot School of Theology but I got to tell you, I have such great memories of Beeson Divinity School. I’m thankful you’re there. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. How did they get you here? You moved here from where? >>Stetzer: Well, who was it ... I was in Pennsylvania. I just left the church we planted in New York and I was going down the road to plant a church in Eerie, PA. And Wallace ... the state exec of Pennsylvania. I feel terrible. I think he’s with the Lord now. So, he’s probably the one who called me. Partly because I had just finished my second masters degree and I’m talking about how the sausage is made here, and they called me and said, “Would you come be a part of this program, DMIN?” And I said, I don’t have enough time from when you finish your masters degree to you start your DMIN I think had to be two years maybe, of ministry experience. And they waived that for me. Partly because I moved out to Buffalo at 21. So, then they graciously recruited me. Jerry Batson and some others who were a part of that. And yeah, so I flew down- >>Doug Sweeney: So, you’d heard about Timothy? What drew you to Beeson? How did we get on your radar screen way back then? >>Stetzer: You know, I think it was that former state exec whose name is escaping me. So, I’m looking to see if I can find it right now. >>Doug Sweeney: Wallace Williams? >>Stetzer: Wallace Williams! Thank you. Not David Wallace. Wallace Williams. Was he the state exec? Well, I guess we can edit all of that out later but Wallace Williams was the one who called me. So, I didn’t know a lot. And then later found out just how I mean significant the ... again, it’s hard for people if you’re not in this world, it’s hard for people to understand just how big a deal it was when the Beeson Divinity School was started at a Baptist University, a multi denominational school, that was evangelical but broadly evangelical. I still remember teasing Timothy George. I don’t know if I’ve ever made the joke to you – because you’ve got an Anglican chair, a Baptist chair ... I asked him once, “What’s it going to take for me to work there?” And he says, “You’re a Baptist, so you can’t ... I’ve got too many Baptists.” I said I started an Anglican. And I said to him, once, where’s your Pentecostal chair? The largest group in the world. You don’t have a Pentecostal chair. But I love the theological depth, breadth of evangelical orthodoxy. And without kind of the jerks. I mean, there was so much ... and if you come to Talbot School of Theology the #6 on my list is, “Please don’t be a jerk.” Don’t come here if this is going to be it. And I just felt that winsome spirit that was there from the beginning when you had Anglicans and Presbyterians, Frank Theilman and others, and you could see that. So, I think it was Wallace Williams who recruited me. I had already read Timothy George and Timothy George’s influence because I was Reformed but not mad about it and so he could sort of help. And he kind of was in many ways a theological mentor to me. I don’t know that he would probably see it that way because I read a lot of books and asked him questions rather than him meeting with me on a monthly basis or something like that. But yeah. So, you had some big shoes to step into. I should interview you about stepping into Timothy George’s shoes! And not even being a Baptist. Timothy, good Baptist though on the Reformed side, and certainly more ecumenical than a whole lot of people would be comfortable with in his denomination, but here you are – I think you and I are the only people who listen to the podcast who knows what your denomination is! This secret Lutheran denomination that is ... they’re wonderful people. >>Doug Sweeney: They sure are! >>Stetzer: They’re just not as known. You’ve got the [crosstalk 00:90:50]. That’s right. And doing great work. I was just emailing some of your leadership the other day about how they’re trying to turn up more of a missional focus. And I really like it. >>Doug Sweeney: All right, Ed, give us a word ... I didn’t plan to ask you this before but now that our listeners have heard the early story of your life, your conversion, your early ministry – give us a word about why seminary? Guys like you and me are talking to people all the time about these things. And there are lots of folks whose stories are a lot like yours. Who feel like, you know what, maybe I don’t even need to go to seminary. And if you’re like me you’re trying to persuade folks like that, that there really is a significant value to the kind of formation that seminary can provide for you for a long life of ministry. But how did you get talked into it? I bet you are a naturally gifted guy. You could have been a well known ministry leader without seminary. What’s the value of having been to seminary? >>Stetzer: Well, I started in ... not really full time because I was working bi-vocationally but I was a lead pastor planting a church before I did any theological education. And I went to an undergraduate college that was sort of one of the colleges that had moved away from their Christian commitment and I took two religion courses because it was required. So, at 21 we packed our bags and moved to the inner city of Buffalo, New York to plant a church in the fastest shrinking city in America in the midst of the crack epidemic of the late ‘80s and early ‘90s. And so I got there and I didn’t immediately start going to seminary. I mean, I had been discipled pretty robustly in the Anglican/Episcopal charismatic tradition I was in. And then the Assemblies of God weeknights. I mean, I went to church a lot of times. I had a lot of discipleship. And I got there and I started to ... I got a job. More than one. But one of the jobs I got was I was blowing insulation and doing renovation of houses. A contractor of sorts. I ran a crew. So, I would work. The crew would send off at 5:30 in the morning. I would work several hours. I had an arrangement with the company that I could get the crews going and I’d do some other things. But pretty quickly I realized that I had some level of understanding that probably a good church member would have. I could teach bible studies. I could preach sermons to some level. But pretty quickly, maybe about six months in I realized I really don’t know what I need to know to do this. So, I was ... in fact, I’ve never done a degree where I was full time doing my degree. I recently wrote an article about what ... if you can do that, what a great opportunity. We have hundreds of students here doing our grad program who have the ability to do that. But a whole lot don’t. I didn’t. So, I realized that I needed some help. And so I talked to ... I’m trying to remember who it was. I think it was someone by the name of Doren McCarty. Most people wouldn’t know him now. But he was a key leader in theological education. I said, “I need to get some ... I need to learn some things. I need to learn more of the bible. I need to have more than just the knowledge that I have.” At the time the first seminary where I got my MDIV, they had extension centers. They pulled back on those things. One was in Pittsburgh and if you know the geography of that region Buffalo is four hours up the road. But I was committed enough that I drove every weekend that class was in session, four hours each way, brought a sleeping bag and slept on the floor of an office building so that I could spend all Friday night and all day Saturday learning and getting my MDIV. This was before stuff was online. I used to study with [Albert Townes 00:13:50] and did some distance education. But it was on VHS tapes. So, a whole different world. So, for about five years I squeezed my three year MDIV into about five years, I would drive there. And it was life to me. It was like when I learned the Old Testament I would then teach and preach the Old Testament. When I learned preaching ... right? I took preaching classes. Actually, it was the preaching class I took at Beeson that was so impactful to me because I couldn’t get alignment for the preaching class at the seminary where I was, so I took it at the local Catholic seminary. I actually did five schools. So, I took preaching and reformation theology from Christ the King Catholic seminary in East Aurora, New York. And the preaching was zero help. Their preaching class was zero help. They were a little surprised a protestant was in there because ... but I learned good stuff about public speaking and then I took the course on reformation history. And it turns out, Doug, they have a whole different perception of what went down during that reformation. You probably figured that out. >>Doug Sweeney: Who knew!? >>Stetzer: So, for me, every time I went it was so valuable to me. Again, I know I sound like an old man. I would drive four hours each way, uphill, in the snow, and sleep on a sleeping bag because every time I came in I learned more. So, I get that for a lot of people they reject the idea ... and you’re still predominantly residential with this new PhD program you have and others, you’ve got some great alternatives as well ... but you know most of our students, a good percentage, but not most, most of our students are not residential. So, I think that the idea that I don’t want to go away for three years, I want to do ministry and impact the world, I think that’s a dated idea and perception. But I would say that if you can enter into something of almost a neo monastic community where you’re sitting in a classroom and doing what the writer of Hebrews says, “provoking one another to love and good deeds.” I would do that. And in some ways I regret that I never did that. Keep in mind, I did my first two masters while planting in Buffalo. I did my DMIN while planting in Erie, PA. And then I did my PhD while a professor at Southern. So, for me ... I’m giving a long answer. I apologize. You can interrupt at any point or you can edit me out at any point. But part of the reality is you and I have been around long enough to know that what happened is that in the ‘50s and ‘60s ... you and I don’t have a living memory of that ... everyone sort of went to seminary if they were going to prepare for ministry in certain denominational traditions. There were still anti educational traditions. But then the ‘80s and ‘90s came and the rise of the contemporary church and the practical church and the seeker church – and people kind of de-emphasized those things. I get it. I watched it happen while I was doing these two masters and two doctorates. So, I didn’t buy into that approach. But I watched it happen. Everyone said we know what we need to know. What we need to do is help people live. And practical messages. And the worst expressions were sermons just became five ways to have a better life. But a lot of people came to Jesus before that. I think what’s happened – and back to your question – in the last five years is people have realized the complexity of ministry. I put up a little meme/reel and it was ... you might have seen it ... not mine, but a lot of people put it out. It had the Olympics compared to 1976 and today. And it had this male, what do they call it – the horse thing – and so he comes up and he does one twist and lands on the horse and everyone applauds. And then it said what 2024 Olympics were which were 14 twists and a land and a hop and a jump and a land. And I tweeted, “Pastors in the ‘80s versus pastors today.” And I think that I said in there this is one of the reasons people are rediscovering and re-engaging theological education. So, if you’re not ready to talk about the theology of the body, you’re not ready to talk about being made in the image of God, worthy of dignity and respect, if you’re not willing to defend the nature of the inspiration and inerrancy of scripture because you studied it, if you’re not willing to teach theological principles in a world where so many Christians are semi pelagian because they chose God and what does that mean? How do we explain that? If you’re not willing to go in and learn those things ... you can learn them on your own. I’m not unaware that you can learn them on your own. But having people like I had at Beeson or we have here at Talbot who have walked this path before you, and say these are the best places to read, let’s talk about this together, let’s engage this together – if you can do it, it’s a remarkable gift. And so that’s why ... remember, when I first met you, Doug, I wasn’t a theological educator. I’ve been a theological educator for five years. When I came to the Wheaton College, I was leading the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center. And I was a professor. I taught a class a year. I was a professor, too. But when I was there I transitioned to be a dean there, and now that’s where I want to spend the next ten years of my life, is helping to educate women and men who are ministering in much more complex ways and I think theological education is a gift that can help them on that journey. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great. I say that as somebody who attended in person the 1976 summer Olympics in Montreal. >>Stetzer: Did you really? >>Doug Sweeney: I did indeed. >>Stetzer: You’re a little older than I expected. I would have been ten in 1976. So, that’s pretty cool. >>Doug Sweeney: I was eleven. >>Stetzer: Okay, we’re about the same age. >>Doug Sweeney: I was there. My father was part of a group that was there with Moody Bible Institute, doing evangelism in Montreal amidst the Olympics. That meant for me that as an eleven year old kid I got to go to all kinds of Olympic events in Montreal. We had a grand time. All right. We’re friends. You’re a fascinating guy. You’ve had a fascinating life. We only have a few minutes left. Take just two of them and kind of fast forward to the present. What did you do when you finished your doctorate of ministry degree at Beeson and how does that get us up to the present at Talbot? >>Stetzer: Okay, so a little weird. I had just planted a church in Eerie, PA. Millcreek Community Church. It had grown pretty substantially. So, people I guess were at some point asking advice or I was speaking at a few conferences then. And then I get a phone call on my cell phone from someone who wasn’t super famous at the time but certainly plenty famous. Someone by the name of Rick Warren. And he called and said, “Ed, we are launching a seminary program in partnership with the North American Mission Board, and the individual seminaries of the Southern Baptist Convention.” And he asked me if I would be willing to be jointly hired by Rick Warren, Al Moeller at Southern Seminary, and then the North American Mission Board, Bob Record, which there’s certain historic irony that those were the people. So, I said yes to that. I literally said to him, I only have a DMIN. I don’t have a PhD. And they said they don’t have anybody ... I guess they couldn’t find someone with a PhD that planted North American churches. It’s much more common now. So, PhD’s are much more common now, too. But so I thought about it and prayed about it. And I packed up the bags. And moved there. I was a professor there for three years. I was the Nehemiah Project Church Planting Professor. Later on, the history kind of got re-written a little bit and Saddleback’s partnership got a bit written out of that in the subsequent history. You can Google and find the original history. Because Rick Warren was the one who first called me. And so I went there and I taught church planting. I did a PhD while I was there. And so finished the PhD, wrote my PhD dissertation on church planting actually. And then from there in quick fashion I left Southern after about three years. I became in charge of the national program. I was the head of the southern program. And then I became the national director of the Nehemiah Project. Had a church planting professor at every seminary. We developed partnerships at about 20 seminaries, helping them train church planters and raise up church planters. That was at the North American Mission Board. And then Tom Rainer called me and asked me to lead something called Lifeway Research. So, I became a Vice President of Lifeway. And over time my role in life sort of just changed. And I got invited into non denominational or inter denominational spaces. Which I felt very comfortable in. When I was working at Lifeway I was increasingly doing those things. I think I was at Lifeway when I went to your denomination as well. And so I was helping Lifeway bridge more broadly. It’s a sales resource, that was a win for them. But then I went to Wheaton College, led the Billy Graham Center for seven years. I was about a decade at Lifeway, seven years at Wheaton, and that was probably a big shift in my life where I was a facilitator, a convener, a researcher, until now I became the Dean at the Talbot School of Theology about a year ago. I’m professor of Mission and Christian Leadership. And I teach here and I teach twice a year in England. And that’s where people ... if you take a class with me you come to England with me and take a class, because we enjoy taking our students overseas as well, and that’s kind of the trajectory and now I’m mainly a motivational speaker who lives in a van down by the river. >>Doug Sweeney: Most of the time that last sort of fast forwarding from Beeson Divinity School to Talbot, you were also pastoring, right? Or at least doing most of the preaching in churches. >>Stetzer: Oh, that’s right! Yeah, I always pastor. I’ve never been at a place where I haven’t been a pastor of some sort. So, when I went to Chicago, or when I was at Lifeway I planted a church. I was interim of a few churches and I planted a church that I left eight years ago. That’s the last church I planted. When I went to Chicago I became the interim pastor of the Moody Church for four years. Wonderful gospel preaching church. And then I was teaching pastor at High Point and now I’m the teaching pastor at Mariner’s Church. I love the Church. I think God has chosen the Church ... I don’t think – the bible says God has chosen the Church to make known his manifold wisdom. I think one of the ways that Talbot’s experienced some really great growth this year – we’re very excited about our new numbers, our incoming class. I think part of that is we just announced loudly and broadly that we’re here to serve the Church. And I think that makes a huge difference. We’ll have lots of people going into the academy. But we ultimately are here to serve the Church. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. That’s marvelous. All right. So, you’re relatively new still to Talbot / Biola. >>Stetzer: Yeah. A little over a year. >>Doug Sweeney: What’s the Lord doing there? What excites you about Talbot/Biola? What’s going on in Los Angeles that our viewers need to know about? And ought to be praying about? >>Stetzer: Well, you know, good things are going on at Talbot. I feel a little stranger talking about the good things at Talbot on the Beeson Podcast. (laughs) >>Doug Sweeney: Not at all! >>Stetzer: You know, our provost – we’ve got kids at Samford. My daughter, your former dean of music and arts was my college suitemate. So, anyway ... yeah, it’s great. We’re just looking at our new numbers, year over year. Our incoming bible and theology majors – we’re a little different. At Samford you’re not vertically integrated in the same way we are. The Talbot School of Theology is both grad, got 1450 students at the grad level and then undergrad is ... everyone takes a bible minor at Biola. So, there are some differences for sure. But our undergrad major is up 30%. Incoming, year over year. We’re thrilled with that. Our seminary incoming class is up 11% as of today. Year over year. So, we’re thrilled with that. Our online program is up 70%, year over year. So, we’re thrilled with that. That was small to start, it is relatively new. Beeson has these incredible blessings of these endowments and more. But you still have to have students every year. We don’t have those things. So, for us (and for you) but for all schools right now to see growth is really exciting for us. We’re the fifth largest multi denominational seminary in the world. I’ll wait till the new numbers come out because that will shift just a little bit in the more positive direction for us. But I’ll wait for those new numbers to come out. I don’t think people realize ... my guess is, Doug, that more people know about Beeson Divinity School than know about the Talbot School of Theology. Just because we haven’t told our story as well. We’re out here on the West Coast – even though it’s the best coast. So, part of what I love to do is I just love to tell people about our faculty. We have 60+ faculty. 300+ books published in the last few years. People use our books all over. We have world class apologetics. Our spiritual formation. I mean, I could go on and on and on. We have the largest apologetics program in the world. I think we have the largest philosophy program in the world. Our spiritual formation program is ... I think it’s the global standard for producing pastors who actually know who they are in Christ and more. So, the more I’ve been here the more thrilled that I’ve been. I was really encouraged to see the growth year over year that we hoped to see. We’re about to make some announcements of a few new programs we’re started. Some other languages, things of that sort. So, the Lord has been good to us. All I had to do ... and this is the great thing. And I know you’re faculty. Because Talbot is like the ... I want to do an ad campaign and they won’t let me use this title because it sounds negative but I wanted to call it the Talbot You Do Not Know. So, all I gotta do is tell people about Talbot and they’re like, “Really!?” And they’re more interested to come. So, that’s the real blessing that you have when you have good solid people like you do at Beeson, like we do at Talbot. Just getting the word out about them and the programs that you have make a difference. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s marvelous. Thanks be to God. >>Stetzer: Amen. >>Doug Sweeney: So, what about the Mariner’s Church? Not many of our listeners will know much about it. Tell us a little bit about it and your ministry there. >>Stetzer: I’m the teaching pastor and scholar in residence. So, that means I teach and preach eight to ten times per year. I guess it’s a little more than that. I just gave a message a few weeks ago. I train the staff on theological issues. We want to be a more theologically driven ministry. So, I do that. Preach on weekends. And during the spring and the fall I’ll do a five weeks Wednesday night series if you want to go deeper. This fall, I’m doing Christian At Our Best, which is the companion study to my book, “Christians In The Age of Outrage.” And because it’s an election year and everyone is mad and so how do we be at our best in these kind of years. So, Eric Geiger is the pastor. My guess is that if you’ve got a pastor audience they’ve read Simple Church and that’s Eric’s doctoral dissertation. And he and Tom Rainer popularized it and made it a book that became the bestselling Christian leadership book. Eric is the best leader I’ve ever worked with. And we’ve been close friends ... I worked for him ... when I was at Lifeway I would fly down every month to preach at Christ Fellowship in Miami where he was the executive pastor. So, we worked together there. I helped recruit him to Lifeway where we served together for seven years. He served a little longer after I left. And now we’re at Mariner’s Church. Ministry is a team sport best done with friends. >>Doug Sweeney: Wonderful. And then real briefly, what about these books you’re supposed to be writing? What’s going on now at the desk of Ed Stetzer? What’s the book project you’ve got going on now? >>Stetzer: Yeah, the book project that your father is waiting patiently for ... and I’m probably 75% done with. It’s basically the present situation and future prospects of evangelicalism. I think you can’t be paying attention and not see that evangelicalism is in some challenging waters. We feel ... you recently joined the National Board of Association of Evangelicals with us, we’re glad that you’re here, there. It’s a complicated time. We’re in a real historic realignment in regard to religious faith and practice in America today. I’ve written a lot about it. More will come out in the book. I talk about the great sort where people are now sorting themselves into their churches more ideologically than theologically or denominationally. I think that’s a key issue. I think there’s more to it as well. On all sides people are ... there are evangelicals who are walking away from basic biblical truths. There are evangelical institution that are saying on some very important issues, “Well, we’re just going to agree to disagree on that.” And simultaneously there are people who are saying that everybody is compromised the gospel when really just a lot of wonderful ministries are being maligned as well. So, it’s a tricky thing. Because there’s more than one thing going on at once. So, I try to frame some of that. Your dad has been affirming of a lot of it. He’s got a good eye for those things. So, it will be out, if all goes well, next year from IVP. Then I’ve got another book beyond that, that your father worked with me on as well. But that one, we’re doing one at a time. We’re just taking it one at a time. But to be clear – I am six years late. So, let’s recognize my failure. Because I keep doing new things! I came to Wheaton and I wasn’t a dean, they wanted me to be a dean. I became a dean. Our program was doing great and I came here. I just got to stop taking new jobs is basically what I got to do. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, Ed, you’re a busy man with a very fruitful ministry. We’re going to cut you some slack. >>Stetzer: I appreciate you cutting me some slack. But again, I’m very thankful for you and the calm cool waters that you model for us to navigate. I appreciate you. >>Doug Sweeney: All right. Last question. We’re really looking forward to having you here to Tuesday. By the time our listeners listen to this podcast episode you will have preached in Beeson Divinity School chapel and in the program notes we’ll put a link to the recording of the sermon. But what are you going to tell the students about on Tuesday when you preach? >>Stetzer: Well, first of all, let me just say I’m really just thrilled and honored that you’d have me come in and let me come and preach. And so I’m looking forward to being there. I think what I’m going to talk through is some of what it means to represent Jesus and his kingdom in these tumultuous and turbulent times. I think that one of the things I’m going to emphasize is that when I was preparing for ministry you’d step into a ministry world and there were people who’d disagree with you and it wasn’t without challenges and you might have an internal conflict in your church but now you’re just going into a different situation. And if you chose ministry because you wanted to go into ministry because people would like you and constantly affirm you – you’ve probably chosen badly. But I think ultimately across 2,000 years of the history of the Christian church this is probably far better of a season than our sisters and brothers fro 2,000 year have faced at other times and places. But it’s also not the romanticized version of ministry that maybe they’re hearing from people who are my age or a little older. Not that it was all easy. But we’re just stepping into a different time and place and we want to be prepared for that cultural moment. >>Doug Sweeney: Can’t wait to have you here. Listeners, this has been Dr. Ed Stetzer. He is the Dean of Talbot School of Theology which is part of Biola University outside of Los Angeles. Ed also serves as scholar in residence and teaching pastor at Mariner’s Church. We’re proud to say he’s an alumnus of Beeson Divinity School. And he’ll be back in Birmingham soon. Thanks, Ed, for joining us. Thanks listeners for tuning in. We love you. We’re praying for you. And we say goodbye for now. ?? >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.