Beeson Podcast, Episode #697 Dr. Doug Webster Date >>Announcer: Welcome to the Beeson podcast, coming to you from Beeson Divinity School on the campus of Samford University. Now your host, Doug Sweeney. >>Doug Sweeney: Welcome to the Beeson Podcast. I am your host, Doug Sweeney. I am here today with my good friend Dr. Doug Webster who teaches lots of things here at Beeson Divinity School – preaching, pastoral theology, theology. He’s been a mentor to many of our best students over the years – served for decades in pastoral ministry before coming to Beeson. Has been on the show numerous times before, talking about various writing projects. We’re excited to have him today on the show to talk about his new book called More Than A Sermon. Thank you, Doug, very much for being with us today. >>Webster: Doug, thank you very much for having me. Looking forward to the conversation. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah, me too. So, we both know that I’ve introduced you a number of times on the Beeson Podcast before, but just for those listeners who haven’t heard enough about you by way of introduction yet, can you just give us a minute or two on how you got to Beeson from pastoral ministry? How you decided in the middle of a very fruitful pastoral ministry that the Lord wanted you to spend more of your time investing in the next generation of pastors? >>Webster: I think I was 56 when I made this transition to Beeson. I had pastored in Bloomington, Indiana, Denver, Colorado, and 14 years at First Pres in San Diego. And it seemed like the church was going very well. My kids had grown up and married and it just seemed like the right time to transition to maybe the last chapter. I didn’t know it would be 16 years, but I’m still here and still enjoying the work very much. It seemed preparing people for the kind of ministry that I had been engaged in was a worthy pursuit. >>Doug Sweeney: How did it work getting you to Beeson? Were you a friend of Timothy George? Was he out trying to talk you into this? How did you actually get to saying “yes” to Beeson? >>Webster: I think there was a conference in San Diego that Dr. George went to and he came to First Pres. I don’t really know. I think a friend had suggested, “Why don’t you check out First Pres?” And I was preaching on the Trinity that day. I think he was surprised by a message on the Trinity, a subject that was dear to his heart. And he invited me out for lunch and we had a great conversation. Calvin Miller was retiring from Beeson, so there was a position. Back in those days I think the search process was really kind of easy! >>Doug Sweeney: Ah, those were the days! (laughter) >>Webster: He just decided, okay ... we went through a semi sort of process on that. But it’s a good experience. As Mark Gignilliat tells me, I don’t interview well. (laughter) >>Doug Sweeney: Your really dear friend, Mark Gignilliat, says that, huh? All right. Well, most people know you already. So, thanks for that little bit of introduction. Let’s talk about your new book More Than A Sermon. I have some detailed questions I want to ask you about it. But let me just start with just sort of a big simple question. Why did you write this book and what are you trying to do in this book? >>Webster: It was during the pandemic when we all had a lot of time at home. I got the idea that wouldn’t it be good and helpful if I took all the work that I have been doing over the years in preaching class and pastoral theology and put it in a book and get it there? The book divides into two. The first part is the purpose of preaching. Then the practice of preaching. So, the last half is dealing with how do you preach in a crisis? How do you preach a Lenten and Easter sermon? Advent, Christmas sermons? How do you do a wedding meditation? How do you do a memorial service meditation? And when I say “how to do it,” I don’t mean that I’ve in any way given the last word on how these things should be done. But I’m sharing my pastoral experience of how I approach that. And it may be sort of just a starter for somebody as they think about, “Well, I’ve got a funeral to do.” And reading that chapter I would think, I’m hoping, would stir your mind in the right direction. >>Doug Sweeney: The kinds of advice that you’d offer seminary students even probably. >>Webster: Right. >>Doug Sweeney: Well, you’ve got the book structured in a twofold way. You’ve got a part one that talks about the purpose of the sermon. And you have a second part that talks about practices of preaching. Practices of the pastor, preaching pastor. Let’s start with part one. What’s the purpose of the sermon? >>Webster: Well, the purpose of the sermon ... that’s why the title: More Than A Sermon. I see the message of the gospel emerging from the fullness of pastoral ministry. So, it’s pastors who preach, it’s not preachers who pastor. And it’s out of that interaction in the life of the church. I discuss life on life discipleship. Preaching the whole counsel of God. The notion that the best way to nurture a church is over long term expository preaching. Helping people to get into the bible for themselves. Not being maybe so concerned to package a sermon as to really give them the meaning of the word of God. That’s just come home to me over the years of how important it is just to really use the creativity of the bible, the texture of the bible, the tone of the bible. Sermons don’t all sound alike. If you are preaching from Jeremiah and then preaching from Paul, preaching from the gospel narratives, preaching from the psalms, preaching from the parables. I want to sound like a person, and I’m trying to convey that, so that if I’m preaching Paul, Paul would be pleased. If I’m preaching from Jeremiah, he would say, “Yeah, you got the tone.” If I’m preaching from the psalm, whether it’s lament or praise, that’s expressive in what is preached. I’ve now been trying to help people, coach people in preaching for 16 years. Still don’t feel I have a handle on it. (laughs) I think I can be helpful but I’m somewhat opposed to kind of a formulaic approach. I’m intrigued by the difference between Paul’s preaching and the super apostles in Corinth. And what is the true nature of eloquence and effectiveness? How can you be compelling without being manipulative? How can you persuade without entertaining? And those are the things I love exploring with Beeson students. And I’m still exploring for myself. >>Doug Sweeney: And it’s a little easier to do those things over the long haul, right? Rather than in a one-off sermon where the people don’t know you. You’re trying to figure out how to make a good biblical impression. The one time you have with them and then you move off. As you have thought in pastoral ministry over the years about what it means to give people the whole counsel of God over the course of a long season with them, as their pastor, how have you thought about mapping out what you do in the pulpit? Has your tendency been that it’s best to preach through books? If it’s best to preach through books, how long do you give it before you have to move to another part of the bible to give people a well balance diet of scripture? What’s your advice about that? >>Webster: As you know, I’m involved in a church plant – Church of the Cross – right now. I’m in the preaching rotation, so I often preach twice a month. And it’s preaching from the lectionary. Which is new to me. Well, the last five to seven years I’ve preached from the lectionary. I’m very thankful to have had decades of preaching expositionally. So, now when I have a lectionary text I’m not seeing this as a piece, pericope, a package that is independent. So, I don’t just try to find the idea in this passage to preach from. I’m always trying to preach from the DNA of the biblical book. And it’s essence. That has been helpful. The first time I went to Northern Ghana to train pastors I came with the pastoral epistles in my mind, heart, in my notes. I preached through the pastoral epistles for my congregation so I’d be ready for these pastors. I knew it would be intensive. But the closer we got to Ghana on the plane I was feeling more and more unsettled about my material. It was too American. It was too cultural. And then we had an experience of meeting the Muslim chief and the second in command in these tribes was the tribal linguist. A second hereditary line. And they were responsible for the oral tradition of the culture. They would sort of dance and sing and poetically present the story of the tribe. And we had that experience where that was done in the afternoon with the 80 some year old tribal linguist. I realized sitting there listening to him that I wanted these pastors to be God’s linguists. Linguist, not in the sense of a technician of language, but linguist in the sense of they called it a poet for their society. So, we spent a week going from Genesis to Revelation. Five hours a day in the heat. Working from Genesis to Revelation. I knew then I needed to do that better. I mean, they received it really well. And that was more than 20 years ago. I go back and they can talk about specifics of that in Ghana. I came back and then decided I’d preach from Genesis to Malachi over an extended period of time with breaks in the summer and breaks for Advent and for Lent. I think the whole theme of “stay in the story,” stay in that gospel story. I think the congregation caught that. Now, it was five sermons on Genesis. You break it down. But there is a natural division in a lot of the biblical books that are really long. And there are key verses. So, I was not preaching verse by verse. I didn’t spend several years in Romans. It was a letter after all and it was read in one sitting for people. I wanted to keep it going. I think it has a momentum. So, that’s a long answer to your short question. >>Doug Sweeney: How much of that experimenting have you done as a pastor of a church? Have there been times when you said to yourself, maybe in the wake of this experience in Ghana, my people need the whole story and I’m spending too long on this book and I need to give them the arc, the narrative arc of scripture. So, I’m going to do this thing – go from Genesis to Malachi. How long did you spend doing that? >>Webster: It was probably several years. >>Doug Sweeney: Oh, okay. So, it wasn’t six months or something. It was a serious ... >>Webster: It was multiple sermons on the psalms or on wisdom literature. Five sermons on Job. Five on Genesis. But enough that it’s still a series, a miniseries within the large series. And so you can invest in the biblical book for a while. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. And you have more experience preaching every Sunday than I do, but I would commend that to pastors who are listening. Would you? Are you glad you did that? Was it a good, positive experience and you wish more people would every once in a while do something like that so that people are bearing the whole story in mind even as for seasons they’re getting part of it? >>Webster: Well, I’m sharing with you my retirement program. Because when I do eventually retire this is what I would like to do on a week night in a church. And just keep going through scripture. I feel like I could live into that. And our congregation certainly can live into that. I don’t want to do this, though, just in terms of building people’s information about scripture. So, it is a pastoral act. It’s a prophetic act. Preaching not only to the person but to the church itself as a body of believers, being shaped by this word. So, there may be a tendency just to get your notebook out and take notes down. And I kind of agree with Tim Keller – you really know that when the preaching is effective people put their pens down and listen. >>Doug Sweeney: All right, can we move into some of the practices that you’re commending in part two of the book we’re discussing: More Than A Sermon? Maybe I can ask it this way – you’ve been teaching/preaching in pastoral theology here at Beeson for quite a while now. Are there topics/emphasises/themes that you find yourself emphasizing these days more than others when you are helping students to become better practitioners of preaching? What are some of the practices of preaching we maybe could pick out from your book and talk about for a minute that are especially important to talk about in this day? >>Webster: Two things come to mind. First, Beeson has such a strong emphasis on the languages and exegesis. There’s a tendency to do that work in those classes and then when it comes to preaching minimize that work. And I’m wanting to bridge that so that all they’ve learned in exegesis they can carry into exposition in a lively way and in a pastoral way and a personal/relational way. And that takes ... that’s not easy to do. Because your brain gets wired it seems for one activity when you do the technical aspects of that. John Wesley compared ... he called for textuaries. As opposed to sort of technicians of the text. People who were totally word dependent but realizing they were communicating life-giving messages, transformative messages. The second bridge that I think of as you’re asking me is a kind of situational awareness of speaking into our culture. Ethically and relationally. As we were discussing before we came on here, just this age of anxiety. So, our word needs to address that. So, you’re bridging both the technical aspects as well as the cultural aspects. >>Doug Sweeney: How does the biblically, theologically driven evangelical pastor do that well? That’s the $64,000 question. Right? Some people who are all about kind of social/cultural/political crisis prophetic preaching. And we have other people who are very nervous about that. How am I going to do that in a kind of expository mode? It seems like you’re trying to build a bridge. You’re trying to keep people grounded biblically, theologically in the text. But encouraging them to branch out and interpret and apply the text in relation to some of these things going on around the world. What’s the advice for doing that well and staying a good bible grounded preacher? >>Webster: I’m just finishing now the lay academy where we’ve spent six weeks, two hours at a time, going through the Book of Revelation. Now that does address political questions, it addresses our minority status within a culture and how to respond. A less challenging book probably would be First Peter. And if you’re looking for how do I preach into this political situation today. We are resident aliens. We don’t believe in Christian nationalism. We realize that the Body of Christ cannot fight the world on the world’s terms. But on Christ’s terms. So, if that book is understood, First Peter is really understood, if Revelation is really understood and I think we should do a lot more in helping people to understand those books, I think a congregation tends to mature and develop. It’s not overnight, but it’s organic and it’s biblical. >>Doug Sweeney: Do you have an opinion that might be worth sharing? I don’t know whether you do or not but do you have an opinion about what an ideal length of a pastorate looks like? I mean, when I listen to you talk about preaching I get the feeling you think staying with the same people at least for a good stretch of time is the best way really to pastor them and give them the whole counsel of God. But how do you think about that? Do you share your own opinion about that with seminary students? Would you want to commend a particular practice here to the people listening to us? >>Webster: Yeah, I don’t want Beeson students to feel that because they’ve gone into a pastoral ministry with the idea that I’d like this to be my lifelong ministry context and then it prove otherwise – to feel really broken and guilty and like they’ve failed. I was in a fairly, I followed a pastor in Bloomington that had been there for 35 years, the founding pastor. And I basically only lasted three years. And I think I was the transition pastor that they didn’t feel they needed. And there was a town, university, town people kind of clash. I’m glad I had the freedom to leave and for someone else to come. So, practically speaking I would have to sort of say that there’s got to be freedom for this. Then I was positioned by the Lord in San Diego for 14 years. The first two years were exceedingly difficult because the church went through a clash over sexual morality. And I would have gladly left (laughs) but the Lord kept reminding me that that was his call and I wasn’t really getting a ticket out of there. I think I would not have been able to take it if the Lord had really verbally said to me, “No, you’re going to be here for 14 years.” But we grew through that and we did develop a household of faith in a mainline church. I do think the power of the word of God was great. We had 890 in attendance and over 800 membership. And there was a tight membership. A lot of ministry and a lot of missions taking place. And then it seemed like 14 years was a good timeframe. I also think you can overstay because it’s just more convenient, comfortable. And I was feeling that, that I was maybe getting stale. And maybe people having heard me for so long, they’d heard everything. (laughs) That’s not the whole counsel of God. It’s just Webster. One thing I do want to say in this context though because I’ve kind of brought up the conflict issue – there have been times both in Bloomington and San Diego where I preached through my feeling of disappointment and concern and tension. And what kept me enjoying life still, enjoying my family and everything was being able to preach the word of God. I get to do that this Sunday. And that can be enough of a motive, just the opportunity to do that, that you can wrestle with all sorts of issues that are surrounding you – the chaos that seems to be evident. So, if there’s anyone listening to us right now, if you devote yourself to the word of God it can be a tremendous help spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, to weather those storms. >>Doug Sweeney: That’s great advice. Can we spend a few minutes ... those of us who have read your book know that there’s this notion of the rock and reed challenge that comes up and recurs throughout the book. Tell us what the rock and reed challenge is. And what people who want to be faithful as pastors who preach ought to know about it. >>Webster: Jeremiah refers to the hammer that breaks the rock and you do find in Jeremiah very sensitive yet hard prophet who spoke to Israel at a time of its apostasy and its idolatry. Didn’t pull any punches and didn’t have any friends. That’s the prophetic angle of the rock. The reed refers to Isaiah’s comment that a bruised reed will not be broken. I see that as the preaching challenge that it has both prophetic and priestly/pastoral implications all the time. You’re constantly. So, I open within the preface comparing Nicodemus and the woman at the well. And I think Christ kind of used the hammer on Nicodemus – you’ve got to be born again. But he didn’t even take this very frail reed and break it when talking to the woman at the well. I want to do both. I think even on Sunday morning you can have kind of the rock and reed challenge in the sermon. I mean, granted, that’s a challenge and I would say that through prayer and the Holy Spirit that can be realized. You can evangelize the seeker who doesn’t know much of anything that we’re talking about here. Or you can edify the old saint. I think both of those things can happen at the same time. >>Doug Sweeney: So, in your view should preachers try to balance the rock and the reed in each sermon? In a way that would be analogous to the kind of Lutheran law gospel combination emphasis? Or is it okay every once in a while in a sermon just to kind of give people the rock or just give people the reed? >>Webster: I don’t know how that really plays out personally. I’ve been told that some of the things that I say, if I said it with a different tone it would have a different reaction. I don’t really know if I can answer that question very well. Because I think to a person sitting there listening, the spirit can apply the word of God as a hammer. And the person sitting next to him or her can feel comforted by that word. >>Doug Sweeney: In ways that aren’t necessarily driven entirely by what the preacher is saying. >>Webster: Exactly. Right. So, it’s not all in your ballpark. The Lord uses that message. I’ve certainly experienced that in reactions to sermons. That it can go both ways with depending on how the person hears it in the spirit. >>Doug Sweeney: Yeah. So, you yourself have been preaching ... I don’t want to guess wrong, but 50 years or so? >>Webster: I’m 72 and when I was 16 our pastor when he went on vacation in the summer would ask me to preach. We were in a really small church. But that probably got me started. Although as a teenager I never imagined that I would be a preaching pastor, or pastor of preaching. >>Doug Sweeney: So, as you look back over that 50 some year period of preaching ministry, I mean two questions come to my mind. Question one: Can you identify seasons in your ministry where your preaching developed in notable ways? Changed in notable ways? And then the other question I have in my mind is, is there still after all these years a way or some ways in which you think you’re continuing to grow as a preacher? Or do you feel like after all these years I kind of know what I do? When I get ready to preach I know what I have in mind and I don’t feel at this point like there’s a lot of sort of areas in which I’m changing or developing? >>Webster: Now you’re asking quite a bit. (laughter) >>Doug Sweeney: Does a mature preacher need to keep changing as a preacher or should he/she just kind of settle in and do what they’re good at doing? >>Webster: Oh, never settled in and just rely on your past experience. The first ten years after the doctorate at the University of Toronto I felt like I had to get over my PhD. I brought sort of a scholastic- >>Doug Sweeney: The technicality of it all. >>Webster: ... aspect to it and too many ideas. Too complicated for people. And that was a long slow process I think of working my way through that. I feel like people were very patient and they liked the preaching. I didn’t feel like I was being beat up every Sunday. But I probably ... yeah ... am more note dependent. I really do manuscript everything. I write it all out. I think it through. I sometimes labor on a transition. But then I pretty much feel compelled by the spirit to put it aside and just talk from the text most Sundays unless there’s a quote and I’m looking down. But I find I don’t even turn the pages of my manuscript, which is in my bible. So, no, I don’t feel any more accomplished after all these years at all. I still feel like ... as one pastor explained it to me – preaching is a little bit like bungee jumping. You kind of launch yourself out in the unknown and if I preach two services consecutively on a Sunday morning they come out very differently. Same truths but stories that I’d forgotten or are in my manuscript will be in one and not in the other, that type of thing. I have good pastor friends who would preach identical sermons if they had service to service. And it’s not that they’re reading them. And I’m not like that. I’m very environmentally sensitive. If I’m feeling like there is a real hearing going on, not necessarily a positive hearing but there is a hearing that’s taking place, people are paying attention – that fires me up. I see that as ... also, really good worship propels me to the lectern or the pulpit or the music stand. When I feel like I’m bringing all the energy to the situation it’s a lot harder for me. >>Doug Sweeney: One last question about preaching. And then we’ll bring it to a close. You have just described kind of the way you are as a preacher. In your mind, should that be translated into some advice for young preachers about how to develop as preachers? You probably don’t want to say all young preachers need to be just like you in every respect. But are there some things you’ve learned as you developed as a preacher that you would actually commend to young preachers as they’re coming up and sort of developing the patterns that they have for study and for preaching and so on? >>Webster: Oh yeah. I think those are kind of in the book. I lay out ... but I don’t, in teaching/preaching at Beeson I am trying to encourage them to find their voice, pay attention to their particular missional situation that they’re in that’s different from mine, different from my voice, it’s a different generation. I don’t want to pull them into my tradition or pull them into my personality. So, I’m not looking for that. I am looking for them to be in the spirit, really creative in understanding what the text is saying. And I do want to impress upon them, if they get that out – what’s really there – they will be doing their job. But you can only do that if preaching becomes something of a way of life. You’re living into the text. And it’s impacted you quite a bit. >>Doug Sweeney: Great advice. All right. Last question. This is the same question every time we get together. We want to conclude by way of edifying our listeners spiritually. We want to ask our guests if the Lord is still doing some things, teaching you some things in your life these days that you might offer to the listeners as a way of concluding on an edifying note. >>Webster: Yeah. You really want to keep going in pastoral ministry as long as you possibly can. Because the opportunities to be able to be with people, to be in the word, to represent Christ, to share the gospel – try never to become tired of doing that. >>Doug Sweeney: The survey suggests of course it’s getting harder and harder for pastors to keep going. >>Webster: Well, resilience, pastoral resilience is such a key component of how I think about pastoral theology. And that’s not only a personal issues, it’s also a structural issue, the life of the church. It’s also how you see shared ministry, how people come alongside you. I dialogue about sermons before I preach them. >>Doug Sweeney: With whom? >>Webster: Well, all sorts of people. Virginia, my wife, has been a great help to interact with. She’s become something of a theologian. That’s been good. I’ve always done it with my children growing up and they didn’t seem to be too bothered by that. They seemed to respect it and I have two now that are preaching, so I guess it was okay. Just living life in the light of God’s word and loving it, knowing that you’ll never get to the bottom of it. When I was a young pastor I thought, “What happens when I’ve exhausted it?” When I’ve really run out of ideas. And I tell this, my first job in a church was as a janitor as a teenager. I’d cut the grass and they wanted me sort of there in the summer 40 hours a week. It was an empty building. But I got along well with the pastor. And the pastor one day showed me a file cabinet in his office that was locked. It had all his 150 sermons. All neatly formed, generic illustrations, just really ... he had it done and he said, “I have a sermon for every occasion.” And I just have such a different ... for a long time now a very different view of sort of, “It’s not a sermonic talk.” It’s a very dynamic engagement of the word of God that never becomes old. I find myself hardly ever going back to old sermons. Just what has been true about what has been preached before is in me. And so that comes back, but always with a new situation that God’s word is addressing. >>Doug Sweeney: It really is that living in the word and living with the word that really does seem to be what impels you, what motors you as a preacher. I wonder if that would be some really good advice for pastors who are growing weary these days, they can’t perform up to the level they have set for themselves to perform at. Or things aren’t going the way they wish they were going. It’s just easy to give up. But it sounds like you’ve kept going for a long time. Not with any sort of pre-established set of worldly standards that you’re matching up to but rather just this love affair with the word and with Christ. >>Webster: Well, and there’s some practical things you can do. When people are going through grief – now there’s some really good advice out there as to how to navigate that. Who you need to be with. What you need to kind of read. The rhythms of life. That’s the same with being a pastor. You do still need to read. And you need to read kind of culturally and you need to read biblically and theologically. But you really need to read. You need to read a novel. You need to stimulate your thinking in that way. And then instead of talking over church politics, which as a pastor I’m fully familiar with, or the business of the church, talk about a person’s devotional life. Talk about their concerns that they would like you to pray over. I mean, talk about what their studying in the bible. I’m just saying there are ways that you can feel that you’re not so isolated and you are kind of creatively engaged. >>Doug Sweeney: Great advice. You have been listening to Dr. Doug Webster. He is a professor of preaching and other things, pastoral theology and other kinds of theology here at Beeson Divinity School. He himself has served as a pastor for many, many years and continues to preach regularly today. And we’ve been talking about his brand new book – which I guess, Doug, is not even actually available in stores for another couple of weeks. But by the time this drops it will almost be available. We’re holding it in our hands. So, we know it’s been printed and it’s called More Than A Sermon: The Purpose And Practice of Christian Preaching. Lexom Press. Please go out and read it. Please continue to pray for the pastors in your world, that they would not grow weary and well doing but would be living in the story, living in the word and with the word and that would be energizing their lives and their ministries. Of course we pray that for everybody listening to this podcast as well. We’re praying for you. We say goodbye for now. >>Rob Willis: You’ve been listening to the Beeson podcast; coming to you from the campus of Samford University. Our theme music is by Advent Birmingham. Our announcer is Mike Pasquarello. Our engineer is Rob Willis. And our show host is Doug Sweeney. For more episodes and to subscribe, visit www.BeesonDivinity.com/podcast. You can also find the Beeson Podcast on iTunes and Spotify.